[00:00:00] Announcer: Jonathan Pogash is the cocktail guru, a mixologist and hospitality expert. Ah, 

[00:00:08] Jonathan: see? Yeah. You know big words. Dude, I'm, I'm the cocktail guru. Cheers. 

[00:00:12] Announcer: Jeffery's his dad, a wine and spirits author, historian, and consultant. 

[00:00:18] Jeffrey: Well, I do my homework. 

[00:00:20] Announcer: With decades of experience, they're always looking for the next big thing.

[00:00:24] Announcer: Join this father and son duo for a few laughs as they explore the hottest trends in hospitality with the service industry's leading trailblazers and taste makers. Welcome to The Cocktail Guru Show. 

[00:00:39] Jonathan: Welcome to the Cocktail Guru Show. 

[00:00:41] Jeffrey: Welcome to this very serious episode of the Cocktail Guru Show. 

[00:00:48] Jonathan: Why are you so serious?

[00:00:49] Jeffrey: Usually we're full of vim and vigor and liveliness and- 

[00:00:54] Jonathan: Yeah ... 

[00:00:54] Jeffrey: fun and luxury and- 

[00:00:56] Jonathan: Yeah ... 

[00:00:57] Jeffrey: today we're gonna get a little more serious. Top- No, 

[00:00:59] Jonathan: we're not. [00:01:00] We're keeping it light. 

[00:01:00] Jeffrey: Oh, we are? 

[00:01:01] Jonathan: Yeah. 

[00:01:01] Jeffrey: Oh, okay. I didn't get that message. Okay. 

[00:01:04] Jonathan: But we're... Uh, first I wanna say where we are. Okay? Where are we? Do you 

[00:01:09] Jeffrey: wanna say?

[00:01:09] Jeffrey: Dear Irving on- Dear- ... Hudson. 

[00:01:11] Jonathan: Exactly. 

[00:01:12] Jeffrey: Dear Irving on Hudson. 

[00:01:13] Jonathan: Right on 40th Street 

[00:01:14] Jeffrey: in Midtown. We can see the Hudson River- The Hudson ... from where we're 

[00:01:16] Jonathan: sitting. 

[00:01:16] Jeffrey: Um- It's beautiful. 

[00:01:17] Jonathan: Yes. Is that the Hudson? Beautiful day. Yes, that's the Hudson, and then the East River's over there. It is a gorgeous day outside.

[00:01:21] Jonathan: It's 

[00:01:22] Jeffrey: a beau- y- y- on a clear day you can see forever. 

[00:01:24] Jonathan: Yes, you can. 

[00:01:25] Jeffrey: Um- That was, that was a Broadway show. 

[00:01:27] Jonathan: Oh, great. 

[00:01:28] Jeffrey: For those who are too young to remember. 

[00:01:31] Jonathan: Pretty much everyone. We're here with an amazing guest, and she was just telling us that she doesn't, she doesn't appear on things. Um, but I've, I've known her for kind of a long time, and, you know, I just thought it's been a long time since I've seen her, and I'd like to, you know, get back in touch, and I'd like the general public to be aware of what she does.

[00:01:53] Jeffrey: And we're going to probe for the first time, probe the depths of this lady's [00:02:00] psyche. 

[00:02:00] Sam Katz: I'm so nervous. 

[00:02:01] Jeffrey: No. And, and, and her various, uh, uh, stellar abilities. 

[00:02:06] Jonathan: So Samantha Katz, welcome to the show. 

[00:02:08] Sam Katz: Oh, it is a absolute privilege to be here with you both. 

[00:02:13] Jeffrey: Thank you, Samantha. Um- You don't have to say that, but thank you very much.

[00:02:16] Sam Katz: Well, it's true. I, I am a completely authentic person. You will get nothing but the truth in this episode. 

[00:02:22] Jeffrey: Very... We don't even... Oh, so we can scrap the serum that we have? 

[00:02:26] Sam Katz: Exactly. 

[00:02:26] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:27] Jonathan: Just take that away. Okay. The juice. Um, so we, um... I think we, we must have met, was it through the USBG, US Bartenders Guild, or who knows?

[00:02:38] Jonathan: But it was probably coming up on almost 20 years ago potentially. 

[00:02:43] Sam Katz: Yeah, before Alan. I like to call- Be- Pre- 

[00:02:46] Jonathan: Pre-Alan ... 

[00:02:46] Sam Katz: Mrs. 

[00:02:47] Paul: Katz. 

[00:02:47] Jonathan: Right. Oh, really? So Samantha is- Oh, that's amazing ... Samantha is married to a guest who we had on last season. Alan Katz. Alan Katz, an amazing distiller. The famous Alan Katz. New York Distilling Company.

[00:02:57] Jonathan: Yep. Yeah. Um, what were you d- what were you [00:03:00] doing then pre-Alan Katz? I don't even remember. I was, I was 

[00:03:04] Sam Katz: bartending. In 2005 I was working on Wall Street. 

[00:03:07] Jonathan: You were working on Wall Street? Yes. 

[00:03:09] Sam Katz: Yes. Uh- So 

[00:03:10] Jeffrey: why did the two of you meet? 

[00:03:11] Jonathan: Yeah, why- Did I meet you then too? Were you, were you- 

[00:03:13] Sam Katz: Yeah ... at the same time? We met a long ti- We d- I've known you both- Yeah

[00:03:17] Sam Katz: before Alan. I mean, it's, it's- Wow ... BA. 

[00:03:20] Jonathan: BA. 

[00:03:21] Sam Katz: Um- 

[00:03:21] Jonathan: Were you an, a, an enthusiast? 

[00:03:23] Sam Katz: I- Oh, it's so, it's such a crazy story, and- Great. We've 

[00:03:28] Jonathan: got time. 

[00:03:29] Sam Katz: Okay, good, because I had a lot of single girlfriends at the time, and we would go out for drinks, and one night we were at a bar called Taylor. Mm-hmm. I remember Taylor.

[00:03:43] Sam Katz: Downtown. Yeah. Remember Taylor? And- 

[00:03:44] Jonathan: Wasn't it in an old tailor shop? 

[00:03:45] Sam Katz: Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Um, and we were at the bar, and I had just been on Facebook at the time telling my friends that I had launched a new community called Singles [00:04:00] Rock. 

[00:04:00] Jonathan: Wow. 

[00:04:01] Sam Katz: The community was for people who had an extra ticket to a rock concert and needed a safe place to have your first date, and the idea was you could invite a plus one, post your extra ticket, see who responds, how they respond in the group, and you would be in a place with security.

[00:04:23] Sam Katz: And honestly, music is a bonder. You, if you like an esoteric band- Hmm ... you probably have some things in common. Mm-hmm. So why not post your extra ticket to the show, end up at the concert, listen to something. If the date is terrible, at least you both enjoyed the band. Right. You'll probably be friends and into the music, and maybe you'll meet somebody else while you're there.

[00:04:44] Sam Katz: So we were at the bar talking about Singles Rock, and a friend of mine had an extra ticket to a show, and she thought the bartender was hot. So I said, "Why don't you ask him if- Huh ... if he wants to be your plus one?" Oh. And, um, at the end of the [00:05:00] night, the bartender brought a wing man, and I was the wing woman, and we went to an after-hours poker party, and the two of them did not end up going to the concert together.

[00:05:10] Sam Katz: I ended up dating the other bartender. 

[00:05:13] Jonathan: And that was? 

[00:05:14] Sam Katz: Marshall Altier. 

[00:05:15] Jonathan: Of course. Yes, Marshall. 

[00:05:16] Sam Katz: And- 

[00:05:17] Jonathan: That, that's how we, yeah, that's 

[00:05:19] Sam Katz: how we met ... that is 

[00:05:20] Jonathan: how we met. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:05:20] Sam Katz: So to be honest, those years pre-Alan, I was immersed in meeting all kinds of people in the bar world, going to Tales of the Cocktail- 

[00:05:31] Jonathan: As a plus one

[00:05:31] Sam Katz: as a pl- S- no, sometimes I was just like- Yeah ... going to be there- Just there ... even not as a plus one. Yeah. But I went, and I threw all kinds of cocktail parties on my rooftop, which you probably could see from here. I used to live on the corner of 17th and 7th, and I had this amazing rooftop, and I would throw after-hours bartender parties where the famous- Oh

[00:05:52] Sam Katz: bartenders of New York City would come and make cocktails. But the infamous one was my, um, lingerie party. [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Jonathan: Ooh. I definitely was not at that. I would remember that. 

[00:06:02] Sam Katz: No, this, this one was seriously awesome. You checked your clothes at the door, and you came in your favorite lingerie. It was sponsored by a couple of alcohol companies, which will remain brandless- Mm-hmm

[00:06:14] Sam Katz: for the moment. Okay. And, um, we had rotation bartenders that would, um, come from their bars as their shifts ended and, or had the nights off, and they would make cocktail concoctions. We had slushie machines. We had all kinds of things going. Party went till 4:00 in the morning, and that to me was a perfect blend of, um, my worlds coming together.

[00:06:38] Sam Katz: We were... Playlists were created for the party that could create a mood. Women were invited to bring their full selves forward- Mm-hmm ... wearing things that- Yeah ... uh, were so unique. Some people made their own lingerie. S- I wore my great-grandmother's 1940s vintage Christian Dior [00:07:00] lingerie. Wow. She was a vintage designer in the '40s of jewelry, Eisenberg Ice.

[00:07:04] Sam Katz: And ultimately, we, we had this expression of self, and the men that were in the room had a great time and were allies to the women. 

[00:07:14] Jonathan: Wow. I did not know that. I did not go- I 

[00:07:19] Jeffrey: don't think I went to any of your- See, we are really going way beyond what we thought we would learn about Samantha Gatts today.

[00:07:23] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. And, and what about... So you were doing that- Kind of on the side in your free time, and then 

[00:07:31] Sam Katz: That I was just partying. 

[00:07:32] Jonathan: You were partying. And professional life, you were still working on Wall Street- Yeah ... or you were starting to develop other businesses and? 

[00:07:38] Sam Katz: No, so Wall Street, I started on Wall Street when I was 19 years old.

[00:07:42] Jonathan: Oh, wow. Mm. 

[00:07:43] Sam Katz: I was recruited in, um, as I was building the environmental policy major for Columbia University. I have always been an intersectional thinker, a community-th- oriented builder. Mm. The idea that you can build anything, [00:08:00] uh, but it all starts with community first. What does the community need? Yeah.

[00:08:04] Sam Katz: What is it missing? And at the time, I was, thought I was gonna be an environmental, uh, environmental engineer or scientist, and very quickly discovered that there were missing links, um, in terms of the subject matter experts at Columbia who were teaching, uh, the environmental-related classes in the econ departments and the poli sci departments and the science departments.

[00:08:29] Sam Katz: And I thought to myself, well, maybe this is an opportunity to be a bridge builder between these different departments to find a common core language that allows community builders who care about the environment to, to have a way to bring people together to create long-term, sustainable, impactful change in this world.

[00:08:51] Sam Katz: Mm. And, uh, at the time, I was looking for a common language, kinda the way you look for a core ingredient in a [00:09:00] cocktail. Yeah. Like, what's your base gonna be? Yeah. Um, well, what was the base gonna be of this new way of teaching, um- Sustainability of, of environmental innovation. And I came up to the conclusion that the common core language was going to be money.

[00:09:17] Sam Katz: Because we have a relationship with money longer than any relationship we have in our lives. And if, if you're born in a different country or culture, you still understand the value of money. So this concept of using money as a common denominator became... And I apologize for my neurodiversity here- ... in the thinking and explanation- No

[00:09:44] Sam Katz: and storytelling, but you use it as a common denominator. Now we can talk about how to bring all these pieces together. So very quickly, I created a hypothesis, and my hypothesis at 19 was, what if we put a price tag on the environment in order [00:10:00] to get the world to care about it? So I got recruited to Wall Street at, five months later, um, and was one of the first dozen pioneers of environmental markets on Wall Street, s- building cap and trade programs, creating the first carbon neutral Republican and Democratic national conventions, building green utility programs in this country, writing legislation- 

[00:10:23] Jonathan: Wow

[00:10:23] Sam Katz: building markets. And at the end of the day, I learned how to talk to leaders and CEOs of major companies very early on. I was teaching the courses at Columbia by the time I was a junior in this, and I can say that I really just was teaching people how to take something that is a liability and turn it into an asset So I was doing that 

[00:10:49] Jonathan: Wow.

[00:10:49] Jonathan: This is- Wow. That- This is exactly why we had you on the 

[00:10:52] Jeffrey: show Talk, talk about changing the world. 

[00:10:55] Jonathan: Yeah, because 

[00:10:56] Jeffrey: I- We have Samantha Katz, who is doing that- 

[00:10:59] Sam Katz: I'm [00:11:00] gonna have, like, 

[00:11:00] Jeffrey: get married ... as we speak. 

[00:11:01] Sam Katz: I'm gonna get married. 

[00:11:01] Jeffrey: Wow. 

[00:11:02] Jonathan: And, and 

[00:11:03] Jeffrey: so- It's real. It's re- see- Uh. That's why we have to go outside on the street, grab people off the sidewalk, and bring them in, because we never know who we're gonna find.

[00:11:12] Jonathan: That doesn't sound safe- And that's how Samantha got here ... for the per- for the people. That sounds illegal. Um, so wow. And moving, moving forward, um, you ended up kind of being ingrained in the food and beverage world, beverage world, and you ended up meeting Alan Katz, and- 

[00:11:31] Sam Katz: I stalked Alan Katz 

[00:11:33] Jonathan: You stalked him?

[00:11:33] Jonathan: Ooh. Tell us about that. Ooh. 

[00:11:34] Sam Katz: I stalked Alan Katz. 

[00:11:35] Jonathan: Okay, tell us about that, please. Tell us about the stalking. 

[00:11:37] Sam Katz: So I'm sure everybody- If you feel comfortable ... knows Jamie Gordon on this show. 

[00:11:40] Jonathan: Oh, yes, Jamie Gordon. We haven't had Jamie Gordon on the show, but we should have him on. I 

[00:11:43] Sam Katz: think we should right that wrong.

[00:11:45] Sam Katz: Okay. I'm putting in the f- 

[00:11:46] Jonathan: Okay ... 

[00:11:46] Sam Katz: the stamp right now. 

[00:11:47] Jonathan: Jamie Gordon. Yes, you know Jamie. Okay. 

[00:11:49] Sam Katz: Um, Jamie, uh, said, "You have to meet this guy, Alan Katz." Um, Jamie and I spent a lot of time together. Uh, he said, "He's kinda like the mayor [00:12:00] of cocktails for New York City." And I was like, "What do you mean? We have a mayor of cocktails?"

[00:12:05] Sam Katz: "Who is this person?" So, um, he told me about Alan Katz, and I asked, "Is he single?" You know, I have a lot of single girlfriends- Ooh ... going back to the original- Oh, yeah ... narrative. Mm-hmm. Um, and he said, "Actually, yeah, he is single." I said, "Well, maybe he would like to date one of my girlfriends." So I made it a mission to find Alan Katz, and I met him, uh, the first time at Clover Club.

[00:12:28] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:28] Sam Katz: I was at brunch with Jamie Gordon, and he was once again talking about Alan Katz. And, um, I said, "You have to stop talking about him. It's been a year of you discussing him, and I've never seen him at a single event." And he said, "Oh, he's right there, standing, um, eight feet in front of you at the bar."

[00:12:46] Jonathan: Huh. 

[00:12:47] Sam Katz: And I was overwhelmed. Hmm. Uh, he was there in a mauve sweater. Um- Uh-huh. Did he have 

[00:12:52] Jonathan: a hat 

[00:12:52] Sam Katz: on? Nigh- no. Okay. 1980s jeans. Yeah. Little balding- Of course ... in the back. 

[00:12:56] Jonathan: Yeah. 

[00:12:56] Sam Katz: And, um, he went to [00:13:00] leave, and Jamie said, "You better go catch him." 

[00:13:02] Jonathan: Uh-huh. 

[00:13:02] Sam Katz: And so I ran. You know, Clover Club has that long bar. Yes. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:07] Sam Katz: Again, I seem to be talking about bars owned by women. It's sort of interesting. Yeah. Wow. Um- It's good ... Clover Club, ran down to the bar, yelling, "Alan Katz, Alan Katz." And as he's opening the door, he turns around and says, "Yes?" And I said- ... "I'm Samantha Unger, and you're the one New Yorker I've been dying to meet."

[00:13:29] Jonathan: Wow. 

[00:13:30] Sam Katz: Now he doesn't remember that day at all. 

[00:13:32] Jonathan: Really? He 

[00:13:32] Sam Katz: can't remember it. So a year goes on, I had to meet him two more times. And finally on the third time, uh, he walked into a bar and a young, wonderful bartender, Katie, turns around and says... hears me talking about Alan Katz as he walks into the bar. And my friend at the bar, who's sitting with me as my plus one- Mm

[00:13:54] Sam Katz: says, "How come you're not dating Alan Katz?" Because at that time I was single. And sh- I said to her, "It's funny you say that, because [00:14:00] on paper he cares about sustainability, he's a slow food person." Mm-hmm. "He's a... seems to be an environmentalist. He loves cocktails." Mm. "He's a his- story... you know, he's a historian-type figure.

[00:14:13] Sam Katz: This is... He seems like a nice guy. You're right, I probably should." And Katie hears this and says, "You should be dating Alan Katz." And she says, "I'm gonna reintroduce you." I said, "Don't bother, he never remembers." So he comes over. She says, says, "Hi, Katie, nice to see you." She says, "Let me introduce you to my friend Samantha."

[00:14:31] Sam Katz: And he turns and says, "Hi, I'm Alan Katz." Oh. And I took his hand and I said, "Alan Katz, we have met before, and if you took a minute to pay attention, you would find me very interesting." 

[00:14:47] Jonathan: Wow. I'm sure he remembers this. 

[00:14:50] Sam Katz: Oh, he does. His, his retort was, "And why is that?" And I honestly, this whole, you know, what did you do on Wall Street?

[00:14:59] Sam Katz: What were [00:15:00] you... A- as a woman leader, I mean, I was partnered on Wall Street at 24. I was a global managing director by the time I was 30. I am probably one of the top 10 most successful young women on Wall Street, and you sort of downplayed that. There's a big thing about when you're dating, like the relationship again with money.

[00:15:21] Sam Katz: Mm. Uh, the conversations, how do y- how do you be a, a confident and powerful woman in an industry and at the same time just have a great date and not have to talk about it? 

[00:15:33] Jonathan: Right. 

[00:15:33] Sam Katz: So, um, so I was like, "Uh, Alan, because I'm an environmental commodities broker." And I had never said anything like that to anyone in the industry.

[00:15:45] Sam Katz: In fact, I don't even think people really knew. No, 

[00:15:48] Jonathan: I didn't know. 

[00:15:49] Sam Katz: People just were like, "Who's this Samantha?" Yeah. "She likes to have a good drink-" Yeah ... "a cocktail. She knows how to throw a party." Um, so he said, "Now that is interesting." And he asked me out on [00:16:00] my first date for three weeks later. Which also wasn't- On that 

[00:16:04] Jonathan: night?

[00:16:05] Sam Katz: N- the next day Oh, the 

[00:16:05] Jonathan: next day. 

[00:16:06] Sam Katz: Yeah ... via email. 

[00:16:07] Jonathan: Email. 

[00:16:08] Sam Katz: Yes. What are you doing the week of October 18th? 

[00:16:12] Jonathan: Dear Samantha. What are you... Like, formal? 

[00:16:15] Sam Katz: Very formal. 

[00:16:16] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:17] Sam Katz: Very, very formal. Now, on the ride home that night, Katie called me and said, "I made a huge mistake. I shouldn't have reintroduced you to Alan Katz.

[00:16:25] Sam Katz: I think I'm supposed to be dating him." 

[00:16:27] Jonathan: What? That's one of those. That's funny. 

[00:16:30] Sam Katz: She's happily married now. 

[00:16:32] Jonathan: Uh-huh. 

[00:16:32] Sam Katz: Um, but it was a f- it was an interesting evening. Yeah. 

[00:16:36] Jeffrey: Well, everyone, welcome to the Samantha and Alan Katz story. That's what this podcast- Love it ... is all, which is great, because we love both of you- Oh, that's sweet

[00:16:45] Jeffrey: Alan and Samantha. And- Feelings are mutual ... we need, we, we want to know

[00:16:50] Jeffrey: the richness of your relationship. 

[00:16:52] Sam Katz: That's sweet. It is definitely... It's been distilling. 

[00:16:55] Jonathan: Yes, it's- Fermenting ... 

[00:16:56] Sam Katz: I was trying, 

[00:16:57] Jonathan: I was gonna try to include this distill in, in this [00:17:00] conversation. Um. 

[00:17:01] Sam Katz: We can. 

[00:17:01] Jonathan: Yeah. Well, let's. 

[00:17:03] Sam Katz: Let's. 

[00:17:04] Jonathan: So, um, Alan got into distilling- Yeah ... and that was around the time that you were married?

[00:17:12] Sam Katz: No, so- No ... so he had, um... It's, it, it's sort of. Mm. It's a sort of. He said, "I have this dream of opening a distillery in New York City." And you asked, um, you know, uh, 20 minutes ago, what, um, how did I get into the, this sort of world, l- uh, you know, of helping entrepreneurs- Yeah ... helping people. Well, at the time, um, I was thinking about, uh, investing, um, beyond environmental.

[00:17:45] Sam Katz: You know, how do you build a portfolio of assets? How do you think about your future wealth? Um- Mm ... h- I was thinking about living wills. I was single. I, w- I owned an apartment in New York City. That was a big deal. Um, [00:18:00] I, I had all of this top of mind, and Alan came to me and said, "I had a dream." I said, "What's your dream?"

[00:18:06] Sam Katz: He says, "I dream of opening a New York, uh, I dream of opening a distillery in New York." I said, "There hasn't been a distillery in New York in over 100 years. You're crazy." Um, and he said, "No, w- we can do it. The laws have changed. We can do it." Doing it was a very big thing. 

[00:18:23] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:23] Sam Katz: Like, what did that mean from a capital intensive perspective, capital in terms of financial capital, labor- 

[00:18:30] Jonathan: Mm-hmm

[00:18:31] Sam Katz: uh, infrastructure, how would we, how would you build it, how would you go about it? I listened to his plan, and I thought his dream was interesting. And I said, "I think I can help your dreams come true." 

[00:18:40] Jonathan: Wow. 

[00:18:41] Sam Katz: And I did. I hel- you know, helped them meet investors for their first round of capital, and, and honestly, in doing that, I started to put my very specific gender lens focus on, you know, where are the women in distilling- Mm-hmm

[00:18:56] Sam Katz: um, what does this industry look like [00:19:00] for, uh, from a diversity, equity, and inclusion standpoint, um, and started to find people along the way. But yeah, it was a, it was a dream, and I remember the day we christened Bernadette, she's our still. 

[00:19:15] Jonathan: Uh-huh, yes. 

[00:19:16] Sam Katz: And, um, when we christened her, I think I was crying- 

[00:19:22] Jonathan: Yeah.

[00:19:22] Jonathan: Well- ... 

[00:19:22] Sam Katz: in the back ... 

[00:19:23] Jonathan: like a child. 

[00:19:24] Sam Katz: Exactly. 

[00:19:25] Jonathan: Yeah. 

[00:19:25] Sam Katz: People say we have... You know, when people say, "Oh, how many kids do you have?" Well, you have children. I say, "We have three." 

[00:19:31] Jonathan: Yes, right. 

[00:19:32] Sam Katz: The still is the first one. 

[00:19:33] Jonathan: Right. One plus two humans. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:19:36] Sam Katz: Yeah. 

[00:19:36] Jonathan: Yeah. 

[00:19:38] Jeffrey: Yeah. 

[00:19:40] Jonathan: Wow. I 

[00:19:42] Jeffrey: love that. 

[00:19:42] Jonathan: And a couple of humanoids. I mean- Huma- okay.

[00:19:44] Jonathan: Humanoids. Yeah. 

[00:19:46] Jeffrey: All that. 

[00:19:46] Jonathan: And, and you also, you founded a, um, a women in distilling group. 

[00:19:51] Jeffrey: Yes. 

[00:19:51] Sam Katz: Yeah. Yes. So Ladies of American Distilleries was birthed in a cocktail bar. 

[00:19:57] Jonathan: Yes, as many things are. 

[00:19:59] Sam Katz: Yes. [00:20:00] Um, Cathy Arenzo and Erica Grisanti- 

[00:20:03] Jonathan: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:20:03] Sam Katz: two incredible women- Yeah ... in the distilling, uh, movement here in New York, both married into- Yes

[00:20:12] Sam Katz: the movement. 

[00:20:13] Jonathan: If you recall, Cathy Arenzo was married to Gabe, Gabe Arenzo, who started, um, Hudson Whiskey Company, and Gabe unfortunately- Of cour- of course ... passed away several years ago. Of course. But yeah. 

[00:20:25] Sam Katz: And Eric- 

[00:20:25] Jeffrey: We, we were one of the first to tour- 

[00:20:28] Jonathan: To go visit ... 

[00:20:29] Jeffrey: the 

[00:20:29] Jonathan: distillery. You maybe, you were maybe on that trip.

[00:20:31] Sam Katz: I think I 

[00:20:32] Jeffrey: did some touring. It was a US- I think you were on that- It was a USBG trip ... we did a, yeah, we did a USBG trip ... and we were among the first to be allowed into the distillery before it officially opened. 

[00:20:43] Sam Katz: Special people. Yeah. Very special people. Uh, 

[00:20:45] Jeffrey: yes. They 

[00:20:46] Sam Katz: are. So- 

[00:20:47] Jeffrey: They were ... 

[00:20:47] Sam Katz: Kathy, Erica, and I went out for cocktails, and on the second round of co- cocktails, Kathy said, "Can I be honest?"

[00:20:58] Sam Katz: And it was interesting [00:21:00] because Erica had married into, um, a spirits and cider family. Mm-hmm. Um, Kathy had married into a spirits family, and both women were at this point f- pretty much fully immersed in the family businesses. 

[00:21:20] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:20] Sam Katz: And the writing was on the wall for me. At what point in time will I be fully immersed in the family business?

[00:21:26] Sam Katz: Mm. Meaning you're not just marrying your husband, you're marrying his business too. 

[00:21:31] Jeffrey: Yeah. 

[00:21:31] Sam Katz: Um, so on the second round of cocktails, we started talking about what it means to be a person who marries into the business, and do you... In particular with Kathy, it was a question around, um, around equity. 

[00:21:46] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:47] Sam Katz: Uh, she was thinking about what it meant to be a part of the family and a part of the business and whether or not it was okay to ask for equity.

[00:21:58] Jonathan: Hmm. 

[00:21:58] Sam Katz: And how it would [00:22:00] be received by- 

[00:22:00] Jonathan: Equity in the business. 

[00:22:01] Sam Katz: Yeah. By her- 

[00:22:02] Jonathan: As a part, as a partner, as a- 

[00:22:04] Sam Katz: Yeah. At the poi- Yeah ... at that point she was running the tasting room. She was building, uh, the employee handbooks. Mm-hmm. She was getting a marketing degree to be able to- Yeah ... take the distillery business to the next level.

[00:22:16] Sam Katz: And on that second round of cocktails, I, I said to her This is all about asking. There, uh, the tone of that family is so wonderful. I th- I think it'll be received well, but you have to put it on the business agenda like you would anything else. Right. And you have to make it a point, and it's really important to be able to ask for things you want in this world and need in this world.

[00:22:42] Sam Katz: You can do this. And after that second cocktail, she turned and said, "What you just gave me was confidence to go and ask, and you need to do this for women all the time." 

[00:22:55] Jonathan: Hmm. 

[00:22:56] Sam Katz: And I said, "You know what? We should form Ladies [00:23:00] of American Distilleries. We carry the load, and we occasionally get loaded." Um- Nice

[00:23:08] Sam Katz: so it grew, it grew, it grew. It grew from, uh, our first meeting in New Orleans with just Cathy and Alan's mom- 

[00:23:16] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... 

[00:23:17] Sam Katz: that's the only attendees, to 100 women by the third year at Tales- Wow ... to 1,000 women in front of and behind the making of spirits. We, through events, uh, educating women on how to get into the distilled spirits industry, we did fundraisers and raised tens of thousands of dollars a year for organizations supporting women in and around New York City.

[00:23:43] Sam Katz: Um, and really we gave this ethos of when you begin to build your, your distilling business, think of your space as a community space. Hmm. A place where you can engage nonprofit organizations, community leaders, advocates, [00:24:00] and make your space not just about the products you're building, but about the community you're building around you.

[00:24:06] Sam Katz: So for the first three years at the distillery, I produced, um- 160 community events for nonprofits in New York, uh, produced all these different, um, types of events for women in distilling, and eventually Karen Hoskins, after three years of pleading, was kind enough to take it over, um, and turn it into the Women's Distillery Guild, and eventually turn it into Women and the Vine and Spirits, the craft spirits- 

[00:24:32] Jonathan: Yeah

[00:24:32] Sam Katz: division. 

[00:24:33] Jonathan: That's terrific. And, uh, I mean, e- everything that you've done in the industry has been a huge asset to just the industry as a whole, obviously, really. Thank 

[00:24:41] Sam Katz: you. 

[00:24:42] Jonathan: Um, and, you know, also the, the challenge which I face as well is, you know, family life and your work environment, and then the two, you know, crossing over all the time and trying to separate- 

[00:24:57] Sam Katz: How does that work out for 

[00:24:58] Jonathan: you?

[00:24:58] Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, I'm always trying to figure out [00:25:00] how to kind of separate the two. 

[00:25:01] Jeffrey: Well, it was a problem for me too- 

[00:25:03] Jonathan: I remember it was a problem for you growing up- ... growing- Because I was- With, with 

[00:25:06] Jeffrey: me and Jessica were growing 

[00:25:06] Jonathan: up ... I was a child. Yeah. Yeah. But I- What do you, what do you do? Is there anything, is there, is it always a work in progress?

[00:25:12] Jonathan: Are there things that can help you separate the two? 

[00:25:16] Sam Katz: I'm not sure I want the separation. Okay. The, this is for me personally. I'm like, "Oh, how do we, uh, do two things at once? How can we make that event- Yeah ... something that's- Yeah ... part of a family trip? How do we teach the kids about entrepreneurship?" Um, you know, we have two, two currently gender identifying girls, uh, cisgender females, and I, I look at it and say, "I want you to, to be the best you can be.

[00:25:44] Sam Katz: We hope that you can achieve greatness, and in order to do that, you need to think about all the ways you can be innovative, you can build, you can- Hmm ... dream and build in this world. And m- most importantly, [00:26:00] whatever it is you set yourself on a path to do or trajectory to do, always surround yourself with people who will continue to support you as you dream, um, who will inspire you to be your best self."

[00:26:14] Sam Katz: And l- literally, the idea of this separation of work and personal life, that is a very blurred line that will only continue to be blurred because, and I used to say this walking into the door of Wall Street every day- I would check my personality, half my personality at the door to go be a leader on Wall Street- 

[00:26:39] Paul: Mm

[00:26:39] Sam Katz: to fit the mold of the culture. And if I hadn't stepped away in 2014 from the trading floors, I think I would have completely have become the culture of money and the culture of Wall Street. Instead, I have found ways to stay true to my authentic being, [00:27:00] to not just replicate what we're told to replicate in an MBA, but find new pathways forward that truly address what we need rather than trying to fit a mold.

[00:27:15] Jonathan: I like that. Wow. I think that all makes sense. Sometimes you stress yourself out more trying to figure out how to separate, versus just accepting. So, um- 

[00:27:27] Jeffrey: Well, I know I've gotten a good dose of psychological help here today. 

[00:27:32] Jonathan: It's been a therapy session, yeah. So, it- Was 

[00:27:33] Jeffrey: it too deep for you? Dark and deep? Not at all.

[00:27:36] Jeffrey: Little meta. I need to go even 

[00:27:37] Sam Katz: deeper than that. 

[00:27:38] Jeffrey: Anytime. 

[00:27:38] Jonathan: So- 

[00:27:38] Jeffrey: Well- ... thank you, Samantha ... Samantha- Thank you for having me ... I'm gonna take you up on that. 

[00:27:41] Jonathan: It's been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much. 

[00:27:43] Sam Katz: Oh, this was- And I think- ... my pleasure ... 

[00:27:44] Jeffrey: you've made our dreams come true today- ... by being here. 

[00:27:48] Sam Katz: Well, as I like to

[00:27:53] Jonathan: say- Thank you very much ... together. We're always better together. Always better together. Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:27:56] Paul: Tipple Time is brought to you in part by [00:28:00] Munyon's Paw Paw Liqueur and POM Wonderful 

[00:28:06] Jonathan: All right, and we're here for another edition of Tipple Time on the Cocktail Guru show l- live... Well, not live, but recorded live in Fort Lauderdale, Florida at Swizzle Rum Bar.

[00:28:15] Jonathan: Uh, special guest, uh, mixologist or, or we can say because we're gonna mix a cocktail together, Paul Massie from Munyon's Paw Paw. And we're gonna talk a little bit about the brand Munyon's and what it is, and then we're going to make a pomegranate daiquiri. 

[00:28:30] Speaker 6: Gotcha. Does that sound- That sounds exciting

[00:28:31] Jonathan: sounds good? 

[00:28:32] Speaker 6: I wouldn't call myself a mixologist- No, I- So I will taste it, you can make it Okay How does that sound? 

[00:28:36] Jonathan: Yeah, no, that, that sounds good to me. I know. No, you're... You know, you're, you're the... Your brains and your recipe developer, recipe, um, sort of influencing the, the new recipe from an old recipe.

[00:28:46] Jonathan: Yep. Is that right? Absolutely right. So look, c- can you tell us a little bit about the story of Munyon's, what it is and, and 

[00:28:52] Speaker 6: all that? Yeah. Yeah, super cool history. This medicine man born dirt poor in Connecticut mid-1800s took Henry Flagler's newly built railroad to [00:29:00] Florida at the late 1800s. Bought a bunch of property on Palm Beach and also bought an island seven miles up the intercoastal which today is known as Munyon Island.

[00:29:08] Speaker 6: In 1903, he built the first boutique hotel in South Florida on that island, and it was his main distribution point for his cure-all elixir Munyon's Paw Paw. Of 

[00:29:16] Jonathan: course. 

[00:29:17] Speaker 6: So this bottle here is one of the original bottles from 1903. Oh, nice. 

[00:29:19] Jonathan: Can 

[00:29:20] Speaker 6: I 

[00:29:20] Jonathan: see that? 

[00:29:20] Speaker 6: Sure. And really cool, we have, uh, three bottles with the liquid still in there and the cork in there.

[00:29:28] Jonathan: Mm. 

[00:29:28] Speaker 6: And we extracted a sample of the original- Yep ... formulation. 

[00:29:31] Jonathan: How is it? 

[00:29:32] Speaker 6: Sent it out to have it analyzed. Yeah. He was prescribing this to anyone that was five or older, selling millions of bottles a year for a buck a bottle, which is like 40 bucks today. Huh. It was approximately 20% alcohol. Right. Had fermented papaya in it.

[00:29:45] Speaker 6: Floridians used to refer to papaya as paw paw. 

[00:29:47] Jonathan: That's right. 

[00:29:48] Speaker 6: But there was also a secret ingredient. 

[00:29:49] Jonathan: Uh-oh. 

[00:29:50] Speaker 6: There was THC in it as well. Yeah. And h- Wow ... so he was way ahead of his time. 

[00:29:54] Jonathan: Right, TH- bottled THC cocktails. Mm-hmm. It's all the rage. 

[00:29:57] Speaker 6: But, uh, his slogan was, "A cure for whatever ails you." [00:30:00] So and, and they say at the turn of the century he was more famous than the President of the United States.

[00:30:04] Jonathan: Oh, wow, wow, wow. 

[00:30:05] Speaker 6: So really cool history behind the brand. So yeah, so Dr. Munyon, he was truly a renaissance man as well. Um, he was a songwriter. I actually have some of his original sheet music here today. Is 

[00:30:14] Jonathan: that this? 

[00:30:14] Speaker 6: That's that. So that song right there is about Palm Beach, Down Where the Paw Paw Grows.

[00:30:20] Speaker 6: And then if you flip it over

[00:30:24] Speaker 6: That, "The Nation" song, was in the running to become our national anthem in the early 19th 

[00:30:30] Jonathan: century. What? Yeah, so- He had quite a head of hair. 

[00:30:31] Speaker 6: He did. You know, he was famous for his famous salutation, finger pointed in the h- air with that haircut saying, "There is hope." And there you go. Good times. Good times.

[00:30:40] Speaker 6: And unlike all the other homeopathic AKA snake oil salesmen from the turn of the century, they all flew under the radar because they were all making outrageous claims for their cure-all elixirs. He was front and center in eve- every one of his ads. Super atypical. So yeah- Yeah ... fascinating individual.

[00:30:55] Jonathan: That's super cool. Um, I wanna open up a bottle. I wanna crack a bottle open so that we can try [00:31:00] it and maybe talk about the flavors and, you know, the recipe and, and... Well, not, not the exact recipe, but, you know, s- some of the things that we might catch when we taste. 

[00:31:11] Speaker 6: So what do you get on the nose? 

[00:31:11] Jonathan: Yeah. On the nose I get, like, fresh citrus peel.

[00:31:14] Speaker 6: Yeah, that's exactly where we're going- Right ... for. We wanted folks to think they were walking through an orange grove- Yeah ... on the front end. 

[00:31:19] Jonathan: Exactly, yeah. 

[00:31:20] Speaker 6: And then if we taste it. 

[00:31:21] Jonathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:27] Jonathan: So it definitely has a, a bit of orange, you know, the tang, the, the peel, k- kind of grapefruity. Um, but then a hint of baking spices. Um, you know, a little bit of like peppercorn at the end. 

[00:31:40] Speaker 6: Yeah. So on the back end, you'll get that all spice, some gentian there, which gives it- Yeah ... some of the bittering notes- Yeah

[00:31:45] Speaker 6: and things along those lines. So we like to say it's like Grand Marnier and Aperol having a baby. Yeah. So you get the orange on the front, bittering on the back. Um, something really cool that we do that no other brand does is you can actually- Oh ... open up our back label. 

[00:31:59] Jonathan: Oh. Oh, [00:32:00] the back label, yes. 

[00:32:01] Speaker 6: You get that.

[00:32:01] Jonathan: You get the story. Oh yeah. Here. There you go. Take that one. You got that one. 

[00:32:05] Speaker 6: And we tell you all 14 ingredients that are in the product as well. So all natural, 14 all-natural ingredients. Mm. We list everything that's in the product as well. Cool. And it is an homage to the original. It's 20% alcohol, just like the original one it was.

[00:32:20] Speaker 6: There is papaya in there. Yeah. There's also 13 other ingredients and no THC. Everyone keeps asking. Oh, no. Maybe. Everyone keeps asking when we're gonna add it back- Maybe. Well ... but we haven't done so yet. 

[00:32:30] Jonathan: Um, and, and that, the cloudy, I don't know if you can see it's kind of cloudy, and I'm presuming then that's because of the oils and the botanicals- You're 

[00:32:37] Speaker 6: absolutely right

[00:32:38] Jonathan: and, and the citrus. Yeah. 

[00:32:38] Speaker 6: We really make everything old world way, where we make our own tinctures in house- Yeah ... and those are from the oils of the peels. Mm-hmm. And that's what gives it a little cloudiness to the product. Yeah. 

[00:32:47] Jonathan: Yeah. I, I like it because, I mean, a lot of brands that are citrus forward, they'll filter out- 

[00:32:51] Speaker 6: Right

[00:32:52] Jonathan: the cloudiness. But I, I like it. I mean, it's really- 

[00:32:54] Speaker 6: Yeah. And, you know- ... keeps it nice and tight ... anytime you start stripping things out- Yeah ... you lose a bunch of those flavors, [00:33:00] aromas, all that. Yeah. So we tend to keep it a little cloudy. 

[00:33:03] Jonathan: Awesome. Um, should we make this cocktail? Let's do it. Perfect. You ready?

[00:33:06] Jonathan: Okay. Well, I'll make it. 

[00:33:07] Speaker 6: All right. Sounds good. 

[00:33:08] Jonathan: I know. You're usually- I'll drink it ... he's like, "I don't want to mix anything." 

[00:33:10] Speaker 6: I've been behind the bar with him before- Yeah ... and he's scaring me. Huh? Oh, 

[00:33:13] Jonathan: no. All right, here we go. So we're gonna do a pomegranate daiquiri, a Munyon's pomegranate daiquiri. So first of all, I'm going to start with, um, POM Wonderful pomegranate juice.

[00:33:22] Jonathan: Uh, I'm going to make two servings, so I'm actually going to do an ounce and a half of the POM Wonderful. Let's go ahead and add our Munyon's Paw Paw. I'm going to do two ounces of the Munyon's Paw Paw. I like to hear that. Yeah. And we're going to add some rum. We have, uh, the rum here from Swizzle Bar, house rum.

[00:33:45] Jonathan: We're going to do an ounce and a half in here, and we're going to do some fresh lime juice. We'll do an ounce and a half of fresh lime juice as well, and if you want a drink that's maybe a little bit more tart, [00:34:00] don't add any simple syrup. I like it a little bit more, you know, 50/50 tart and sweet. So I'm just gonna add about a half ounce of simple syrup into my, oh, a little bit more than that.

[00:34:10] Jonathan: That was a quarter ounce. And there we go. And now I've got my ice inside of my big tin. We'll give it a shake. Ready?

[00:34:24] Jonathan: There we go. That's why we pay you the big bucks right there, Jonathan. Exactly, right? You heard it first. Heard it here first. I'm gonna grab a couple of coupe glasses from this fridge over here. Uh, there we go. Right over here, and we'll strain it out. Beautiful, bright, almost like a neon color, right? 

[00:34:46] Speaker 6: Love the color of it, yeah.

[00:34:48] Jonathan: Beautiful. And garnish, just a simple, a lime wheel floating on top, just like that. Just like that. You wanna give it a try? Let's do it. [00:35:00] Here you go. Someone, again, lurking in my peripheral- Is J- Oh. Oh, oh, he's got an ailment. I'm feeling, 

[00:35:08] Paul: I'm feeling a little peaked. A cure for whatever ails you. I could, I could use some of Dr.

[00:35:12] Paul: Munyon's ball palm. Hold on. 

[00:35:14] Jonathan: Hold on, let, I'm gonna taste it first. 

[00:35:16] Paul: Okay. But I need 

[00:35:17] Jonathan: this. Get your paws, get your paw-paws off. Get off the ball palm. 

[00:35:21] Speaker 6: He smelled out the booze. Cheers. Cheers, bud.

[00:35:26] Jonathan: It's nice. I 

[00:35:26] Speaker 6: need this. That's absolutely delicious. Really 

[00:35:28] Jonathan: good. You know, really like cosmo-esque- 

[00:35:29] Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah ... 

[00:35:30] Jonathan: almost. Mm. But I do think that the, the citrus, the bitterness in Paw Paw, in the Munyon's Paw Paw goes well with pomegranate. I think that that combination's really nice. 

[00:35:39] Speaker 6: To be honest with you, Jonathan, I don't know if I've had- Switching a little bit

[00:35:41] Speaker 6: pomegranate with it before. 

[00:35:42] Jonathan: Really? 

[00:35:43] Speaker 6: That's a delicious cocktail. That's really good. Really good. Yeah. 

[00:35:45] Jonathan: That's why we do the Tipple Times, unusual combinations but, you know, not unusual outcomes. Knocked it out the park again. I don't know. That's it. 

[00:35:53] Speaker 6: Huh? 

[00:35:54] Jeffrey: Unusually delicious. 

[00:35:55] Jonathan: Unusually delicious. Um, well thank you.

[00:35:57] Jonathan: Cheers everyone. Cheers bud. To another Tipple Time. To Paw Paw. Thank you, [00:36:00] Paul. Cheers. Yeah. Cheers. 

[00:36:02] Paul: Cheers. Tipple Time is brought to you in part by POM Wonderful and Munyon's Paw Paw Liqueur

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